Podcast: Growing culture by marrying IC and recruitment

Most of us have faced the question - how do Internal-Comms measures turn into concrete business results?

Truth be told, it’s not always clear. How do we explain what is often not measured to someone else? “Internal Comms is not limited to the work of one person, or one department for that matter. Everyone in a company is an Internal Communicator. It’s about helping everyone to see the magic that’s happening behind the curtains” according to Channa Green, our guest on this episode of The Internal Communications Podcast.

Channa knows the deal. She’s a former journalist and PR professional with a deep passion for creating internal and external communications strategies that scale organizations and build culture through various inflection points. Channa joined True, a global talent sourcing company, in 2014. She’s served as a communications advisor to CEOs, venture capital investors, and associations throughout the US.

She talks us through an array of topics, such as the role of Internal Comms in recruiting, the perks of having a journalistic viewpoint in an organization. She also has some powerful advice for women looking to ascend the corporate ranks. Channa knows the ins and outs of what she does, what to look out for, and how to explain it. You can watch the podcast below, or listen to it on the platform of your choice.

Channa’s backstory

Jonathan : So, I want to start things off on a personal note because first off, you're an amazing storyteller and, second, I think you have some very interesting bits to share. So, your title now, and I hope I'm going to say this correctly, is the VP of corporate communications and strategic marketing.

Am I right? 

Channa: That's right.

Jonathan : Awesome. But I mean, that's not where you started in your career, right?

Channa: It's not. I have to say there is a common thread from where I started to where I am now. I actually have a background in broadcast journalism, and what drew me to that profession originally was just the need to share information with people. That's what it was all about for me. So the first part of my career was really focused on helping to inform the masses in some way about whatever was going on. So I was the one woman band reporter out in some little town in Virginia.

First, you know, covering hurricanes and pig farms and setting up my own tribe, my tripod, and running in front of the camera and shooting my standups and telling my own stories, writing my own scripts, doing my own editing and getting my pieces out on the air. I really learned to character build in that part of my career.

I then sort of graduated, matured a little bit. I got to do some news anchoring on both in the morning and evening podcasts, here in the US for an ABC affiliate in North Carolina, and in Washington DC. I was a producer. And then got really tired of that business, quite frankly, it is really tough, broadcast news. It just wasn't for me. And I knew that I wanted to do more. And that's when I started to get into the world of public relations and PR. I worked with a PR firm that focused on financial services, which I knew nothing about at the time, but what I knew was broadcast, and the firm that I joined did not have that capability, so I was able to bring a skillset.

I learned my client's business and was able to apply it there. So I had a good amount of success working with venture capital firms, the portfolio companies they invest in, which are very often tech, or tech-related. And that's where I really learned that part of the business. That was the bulk of my career for many years. Then I came to True because my PR firm at the time and True had a mutual client that was a venture capital firm, and an introduction was made. We just kind of aligned in what we believed in and how we worked. It's been great ever since. I joined True back in 2014. It's been amazing.

I've had a couple of different roles within the firm, but again, the common thread has just been about storytelling and helping people. Really understanding information at varying degrees. That's what my passion is. 

Journalistic curiosity in PR

Jonathan : I think we have a lot of people listening in that either have a love for or come from the background of journalism.

It's really cool to hear that we have someone here who shares that experience. When it comes to, I mean, essentially you switched to the dark side, right? Going from journalism to more of the PR aspect. It must have been really tough to learn how the financial services industry works.  Because I did that myself and oh my God, the amount of acronyms alone. It’s so difficult.

How did you, how did you even go about that? 

Channa: It's so interesting Jonathan, because when you work for an agency and you have multiple clients, you need to know a little bit about everything. Right. Jack of all trades, it was very comfortable for me. I was very used to it, especially as a reporter, you become an expert for five minutes on one thing.

Tell that story. You trust our experts to really do the heavy lifting for you, and then you're just really connecting the dots for people. That philosophy has really served me well. even today. So for me, I was first learning about venture capital and technology. Just immersing yourself in that world. You hear the vernacular, you know when to keep quiet and just listen. And I think a large part of storytelling is about listening, quite frankly. So I did it a lot of listening, and I just learned to be comfortable with focusing on what I did know. I know what a reporter needs. I know what my audience needs to hear.

My job is to facilitate an introduction, and then let the experts rattle off the acronyms, and really get into the weeds of their business. The impression that I can't know your business better than you do, but I know how to make an introduction and I know how to get people to listen to what you have to say and when I just stayed in my lane and let the experts really be the experts. Yeah. I let the magic happen between the parties who really needed to connect. And so for me, it's really about understanding. Enough to be dangerous and to have those initial conversations.  I'm more of an expert now that I'm in-house, and I'm in a firm that I've been with for so long, I understand this business really well.

That was really my approach to just focus on what I knew. Let the learning happen organically, and let people do what they do, because each of us brings, I guess a talent, a perspective. By shining where I can shine, it empowered them to shine where they shine, and I didn't.

Jonathan : It’s that kind of inherent journalistic curiosity that must have helped you as well. You always want to scoop out the angles and kind of see the headlines of what people are talking about. Was that also a large part of you understanding the business better then, or quicker, let's say, just because you have that drive to really see where the real story is at?

Channa: Definitely. Having as much as you can, get immersed in something and it really does make a difference. So even now, for example, I can have an introductory conversation. As you well know, you get follow up questions and people have more and more. They want to learn and they want to know. You have to do your best in order to represent whoever it is that you're speaking on behalf of. You really want to be able to represent them in some way. It's also helpful to be able to say, hey listen, I really need you to connect you with so and so, because they're really going to be able to do this justice. And they understand the nuances of what you're going to say.

Then, you can give your insight. but I really do think it's important to know your business as much as you can. But also know when it's time to do a handoff. 

Gaining insight from everything and everyone

Jonathan : I think that's definitely something that we've always tried to advocate, is that internal communicators specifically are in the position where they need to translate what even the most granular departments activity. How that contributes to the larger whole, and you have to understand the business very well to do that.

I guess using that little link when you went to true Internal Comms also became a part of what you started doing right. What was that like? 

Channa: It was a journey. And you can probably relate to this pretty well. Internal communication hasn't always been a no brainer role for a lot of companies. I'm very fortunate because I have two CEOs who really understand and appreciate the value of that role.

At the size and level of maturity where we are now, frankly, when we first talked about it, they didn't quite see it. They even said to me when I had proposed the role, and they said, eh, I get it, but I'm not sure it's right for us right now. They were probably right. It was maybe an idea whose time had not yet come for our firm. But fast forward several months, the company was growing leaps and bounds. There was an increased demand among the employees to really understand different aspects of the business in different ways. That's when they asked me to take on that role. One, I give credit to the CEO's who are self-aware enough to understand that there was something to do there, and it was then incumbent upon me to take the opportunity and really seize it and do as much with it as I could. So yes, understanding the business. I know more now about HR, for example, than I ever thought I would because I worked very closely with our head of human resources, especially during these times.

She is the expert, and she knows policies and employment laws inside out. But because I have to help her see messages and we have things to communicate, I have become a pseudo expert for that time being, and know what questions to ask before so that we are telling the story that we need to tell.

That's another important point, Jonathan. I think it's also about knowing the questions to ask. One of the benefits about being sort of a lay person is that you're hearing this information for the first time as well. The questions I might have  pretty highly likely questions other people will have.

Anytime I'm talking to the tech team, I'm talking to the HR team or our learning and development team  I've got my late person to head on, and then I'm putting myself in my audience issues, and really helping to frame a story and a message based on not only the information we want you to push out, but what questions will we most likely get, based on everybody else's level of understanding of a particular topic?

Jonathan : That's really cool. Internal Comms must've people often come from a background in PR and journalism, and they do Internal Comms and they have this vision of Internal Comms like PR for the company. You said the initial need of True very much came from people wanting to understand the business and the strategy behind it better. But their muscles will be a big aspect of wanting to engage employees and getting them to be more familiar with each other.

Channa: It's really interesting. We are unique, especially in our industry, in that our culture is a huge differentiator for us. When you think about employee engagement as an aspect of culture, you're exactly right. The beauty, I think for us and what makes my job a little bit easy in that respect is we're really starting already from  really high, It's really strong for our firm. Since we already had that, I think our CEO saw it as Internal Comms being a no brainer way to keep that culture building and growing. As the company continued to build and grow, every startup has had that challenge where, of how do you maintain culture through scale?

They built our organization keeping that in mind. Understanding that that can be challenging if you're not intentional about trying to solve it. Internal Comms certainly plays a role in helping to keep that culture vibrant and alive. So for us, thankfully it's additive, and not necessarily used as a tool that has to fix something. We also measure it right. We're also very keen to understand where do we do well, where do we need to improve, and how can Internal Comms help drive those improvements or reinforce what we've already done?

How to measure Internal Comms

Jonathan : Measurement isn't something that you hear a lot in Internal Comms. It's definitely starting to become more and more important as people are increasingly adapting to the digital, so it's much harder to get face to face feedback, especially in today's world with the COVID-19 on them.

What kind of things do you measure? What are the most important parts? 

Channa: It's interesting. We have done this now three times at our firm, including just very recently, where we just want to understand how we're doing as a business, how leadership is doing. What's the flow of information? Do you feel like you're informed? Do you have what you need to do your job? It includes everything from training to basic support to your business development collateral, to your technology needs. We asked these questions of our teams at least once a year. We're now moving to a twice a year, a formal engagement process.

This is separate and apart from any anecdotal feedback that we might get. Interestingly, I have communication in my title, but it's something that everybody owns and is responsible for. So when we look at, we don't necessarily say - is  Internal Comms doing a good job? However, we might ask, do you understand what the purpose of this company is? Is it clear to you what our vision is? And if the answers are yes, then that tells me, okay, good. I'm part of a solution that's helping to get that accomplished. If the answer is no, where we see that there's a dip or maybe there’s been a strategic shift, for example, or we've launched a new program and people don't really get it, or they don't know where to find something, that it's a signal to me that I can do something to help making this thing better, whatever it is. I care about the answers to every single question from people not understanding which technology they should be using to video call.

I might not own those projects per se, but I can certainly help support my colleagues and those departments to market themselves internally to make sure that we're getting the employees to understand, and/or take action.

Initiating a business movement behind the curtains

Jonathan : There you have it. That's one of the most frequent problems of internal communications.

Then you have business objectives that need to be reached, and in your way, they're harmonious. You're bringing both together. It's a very targeted way of helping your business, and helping your people at the same time because it's kind of the same thing. 

Channa:  Internal Comms is also about helping everybody else succeed. I mean, it's not necessarily the sexiest role because it's not always front and center. Again, this is like the magic that's happening behind the curtain, so to speak. I mean, whether you're helping to launch a new product or a new brand. People can be focused on the product or the brand or the business or whatever it is, but oftentimes there is a communicator, or a marketer behind the scenes that's helping to frame the message, the story, and the launch plan. It is very often a behind the scenes kind of role, at least for me, where I have found that it's about making other people look good in making other initiatives really shine.

That to me is what makes the role successful and rewarding. 

Jonathan : It's interesting because making other people shine - and previously you said that everybody is responsible for communications - but as an internal communicator, you still have a role to play in that. Right? So what do you do?

Do you proactively get people to engage? Do you approach them and say, hey, I need to teach you grammar so that you can put this better out? Or is it much more, you know, bigger than that granular aspect? What do you do? How do you get people to talk?

Channa: I appreciate that question. For me, the ownership part of Internal Comms and helping other people shine is being the one who ensures these conversations are had from the right perspective. Oftentimes when someone is so close to a project, or a team is so close to the details and nuances of a particular project, whatever it might be, they're not thinking about - how are we going to launch this? How will this be received by our internal audience? What are the implications of framing this one way over another? The Internal Comms responsibility, in my point of view, is the person whose job it is to make sure that you are driving those conversations right. If we are launching a new policy of some kind, okay, I understand - these are all the details.

Now let's talk about the timing for getting this out. Making sure we are addressing the right audiences. Do we need to identify champions and influencers within the organization to reinforce key messages? Somebody has to take ownership for thinking those things through because everybody else is focusing on the details and the nuance of that new - widget, product, policy, whatever - where you need them to be focused on. The internal communicator has the luxury of taking a macro view and looking at it holistically. So we just told this segment of our employees X. Now we have to say why they might look at us or not. If we can frame it this way and really helped bring a macro view, that is the communicator's job to me. And that's how you juxtapose up. It's everybody's job and I do help everybody shine, but I am responsible for making sure that those conversations are being done in the right way. 

Making your voice heard

Jonathan : That's a super modern way of looking at it.

Now I'm actually really curious. This is, you're going to hate me for asking this question, but so in a very cliché saying - you’re essentially the spider in the web. Everybody loves this saying, because you need to understand what's going on and yeah, I get that. Now, here's the problem that a lot of internal communicators have: they have no idea what's going on in their company because nobody tells them. How do you prevent that from happening? 

Channa: I understand that completely. I'm trying to be diplomatic here. I don't know that there's any other way to say it than to elbow your way into those conversations. I personally am not a fan of inviting myself to any party. It is just not what I do and it takes me out of my comfort zone to sometimes say, hey, listen, I need to be part of that conversation. But that is what I've done, over the course of time and what I found, Jonathan. You start to train people to think that they need to invite you to the conversation at the right time.

I really believe that nobody is going to really understand your job and validate it, unless you make a case. Sometimes you can just do that by asking questions, because when you ask certain questions people then realize - oh shoot, I didn't think about that. It helps bring a perspective to a conversation that they never would have had.

You're adding value inviting your way simply by posing questions and then people realize you have a perspective to bring. It's a diverse point of view that they had never considered. I need to bring you into this. So that those are the two things that have really served me well. Asking questions and simply point-blank saying he listened.

It would really help me do my job if I could be a fly on that wall of that conversation. I still say this to that to this day verbatim. Hey Jon, it will really help me help you if I can just listen to how you guys are talking about it, or thinking about it the earlier I can listen, then I can really help you. When it's time to launch, I can really make sure I'm giving you the right set of questions and answers to think about. I can really make sure that we're positioning this well cause I know that so-and-so was working on something else. So there's some synergy here. Do you mind if I just listen, I'll put myself on you? I just want to hear. That way people get comfortable with the fact that you're there to really support them and not to create roadblocks. Anything else that might slow them down, if that's a fear. So for me, it's really just about saying, hey, listen, I need to hear it because it will help me help you. I've never ever had anybody say no. They might say not yet, or we're almost ready, in which case I will follow up. I've never had anybody say no, and that includes my CEO's. And sometimes they will even say to me: are you getting what you need? And I so appreciate that question. Thankfully the answer is usually yes, but that has been built over time. Because they know that I'll ask them what's going on? Or I'll ask very pointed questions, and that will trigger a thought in their mind and they realize, oh, I didn't think to tell you about this.

Oh, I didn't realize you needed to be aware. Ask questions. Your role exists for a reason, right? And you're tasked with this responsibility for a reason. I think this one is on us, to make sure that people are reminded of what that reason is. And you have to advocate for your role.

Confidence in your role

Jonathan : First off, absolutely agreed. If that's being a fly on the wall in almost all of those meetings, product launches, campaigns that people are starting, new initiatives that it is setting up to make the workforce better. Super important. Listening is one of the most important skills for any internal communicator ever because, and what I'm getting from you, you're able to draw parallels between everything that's happening. So your job becomes much easier. But then my question is for a lot of internal communicators, that are in companies right now, and I don't want to overstate this, because luckily this is changing heavily. Especially because of what we're going through now in the world. A lot of internal communicators aren't seen as super valuable. They don't automatically get invited to meetings. They don't have that. Not everybody wants to elbow their way through into those meetings like you definitely do. What would you advise them? How are they going to get that confidence that they need to get where they need to in order to be successful?

Channa: I appreciate that, and it is difficult. The best piece of advice I can offer is to have certainty and security about the value that you add to your company. I know whether anybody else gets it or not, I know what I do is important and that kind of gives me the chutzpah to work up the nerve to elbow my way in.

I know that what I do is important now. Not everybody thinks what I do is important, or they might not like my approach. Whatever it all is, that’s perfectly fine. When you are so certain in the value that you bring, not that you have all the answers, but you have that role for a reason.

When I used to work with venture capital firms, Jonathan, this is funny - at the beginning of my career when I had no idea what these people in the room were talking about, I didn't know what IRR was. I didn't know what a term sheet was. I didn't know anything, but I knew that I was smart, that I could figure it out. Nobody was just better than me, as a human being. We all woke up that morning. We all put on our pants the same way. We are all basically the same people. All right, so they've got experience or they know what they're doing good.

I'm also at this table for a reason, or my job exists for a reason, and that gave me the comfort to really feel validated in my role. Listen, at the end of the day, everybody had a first day at something. The fact that you're there just says so much, have confidence in that. If the role wasn't important, if the company didn't think it was necessary, you wouldn't be doing it. Own that. And you know what? Start off small. If it's not about the elbow, when your way in, again, have someone on one conversations, ask some questions, say - I don't know if this has been discussed, but one thought occurred to me and share an idea and you'll feel more comfortable doing it on a grassroots level or in a one on one thing. I think people will start to advocate on your behalf. Before you know it, you feel like you have the ability to ask for that seat at the table, or you've created a demand even better, you've created a demand without having to do what yourself and sort of pounder way in. You've sort of created a demand for your service or your skillset, and others are doing it for you, which is the best, in my opinion.

Have that confidence, even if you're just having a one on one conversation with somebody that do you feel comfortable having it with? Yeah. You gotta start somewhere.

Internal Comms as an integral part of recruitment 

Jonathan : Makes absolute sense. Great advice. I'd say to anyone. Actually I need to ask you this question before I forget, because the entire reason why I felt like you were the perfect guest, for now, it was also to talk about the Internal Comms role in recruitment because you work for a firm that literally does recruitment.

So you must have an interesting view on how Internal Comms can add value to that aspect of any business. So I'm just really curious to hear about that.

Channa: It certainly does help, and it's so important. Our philosophy really is a soup to nuts philosophy. I'm very fortunate we have somebody on our team knowing one of her responsibilities is recruitment marketing.

That is what she focused on. She works with our talent acquisition team to help them tell the right message to external candidates because it starts before the onboarding process. Our talent acquisition team has a mandate to go hire, say they're hiring five people.  Are we telling the right story? Are they current on their message? Do they understand what the market is telling us, and what are we really focused on as a company at that time? Let's make sure that we are. Starting the recruitment process at the very beginning with the right tone and the right message, which by the way, is not always the same for all groups of people.

The way you might communicate with either a senior level person is perhaps a little bit different than you would talk to somebody fresh out of college who's looking for their first job. They are at different points in their career and the things that might attract them could be different. So we work very closely with our talent acquisition team to understand the profile of the person we're looking to hire, and the role that they're going to fill and make sure that the team is equipped with the right messages to do that. Then you've got the hiring committee, right? The other people that are also going to be involved in the interview process. Frankly, they are really getting into the weeds. We tend to leave them alone. We tend to let them really talk with the people that they're interviewing. But then, the onboarding process is where we really come back into the process with a pretty heavy hand. Are they getting the right employee experience? Do they feel as welcome? Are they getting the right access to the information, in the right way and at the right time? We look at the onboarding process, and this is something that is a constantly evolving process.

As you might imagine. It's not a one and done. It's not something that you do and set aside for somebody else to run through their checklist. When you do that, things tend to slip in a company like ours. It's constantly evolving. You need to make sure.

Talent acquisition guys starting at the top of the funnel, the talent acquisition guys have the current messaging, and the hiring committee is well supported. They have what they need, an onboarding process from offering letters through the first 30, 60, 90 days of being at the firm that they are consistently getting okay.

The employee experience we want them to get. They understand all that's available to them, and we prioritize the learning based on what we need them to execute on. It really is touching all parts of the interviewing and onboarding process, and staying close to the people who are actually executing on it on a regular basis. For us, it's the talent acquisition team and human resources, and our learning and development team. So again, this is one of those areas where Internal Comms is weaving through all of those pieces in the background, making sure that they're all in position for success. We are able to bring an element, have that conversation to make sure they're framing it in the right way.

Again, it’s to help them make sure we're delivering the best experience for candidates. And then new hires once they joined. 

Jonathan : So in those specific talent acquisition parts, would you say that if you already have kind of an established, strong internal communications going on, you've developed your company's story quite well.

Everybody knows it within the talent acquisition process that story becomes a part of feeding through the right people. Does that then largely have an impact that you have on the cultural fit?

Channa: Hmm. Yes. Interestingly, cultural fit I think is defined in different ways by different companies for us, right? I mean, everybody has like the no jerks policy, right? We don't want to hire any jerks. What's even more interesting though, is to be able to appeal back the layers and really try to understand someone's motivators. It's not just culture fit, to me it isn't just cookie cutter.  Look like us.

Talk like us. Same background as us. Therefore they fit. Sometimes a culture fit, additive or complementary, or if you're trying to adjust your culture in some way, does this new person take you where you want to go in a way that the organization is ready for?

And then for us, for example, there are different parts of our business. So what might work in one part of the business, it doesn't necessarily work in another part of the business, but there are certainly some common threads that everybody cheers. I think communications can influence that, but I think more importantly, it ensures that you're asking the right questions to really uncover what someone's true motivators are, and how are they really going to add to the organization. 

Jonathan : I guess that's also an aspect, right? So if, if you're as an organization, for example, heavily focusing on expanding your market share by going into a different country, then the type of cultural fit that you're looking for has to be additive.

It can't just be the same person because you're going somewhere else. It's going to be new anyway. So then I, I guess if you tell that story well of where you're going and most importantly, why you're doing it, then that would then help the talent acquisition team find them a better fit. 

Channa: That's right. That's right.

You're also presumably very grounded in a set of operating principles or cultural values that are non-negotiable. I mean, I could rattle our five off in my sleep. My kids probably could at this point. They hear me talk about them all so much. I don't interview for a living, but I know that our talent acquisition team says all the time, that we're very collaborative.

It is who we are. It's in our DNA. Period. They know how to listen for things that might indicate collaboration can be difficult for this particular candidate. If you have those core values and operating principles that are non-negotiable, it makes the interview process a whole lot easier.

Climbing the ladder of success 

Jonathan : Interesting. I really liked that direction of you can see that that company storytelling is something that's close to every internal communicators heart, but it's also something that's seen as very fluffy to the business. But again, even from the start of this conversation, you were talking about aligning everything you do to business objectives.

This is a good example of how that fluffy stuff actually helps your business find the right fit. That's a really interesting way of thinking. Now, I'm actually also curious because there's another reason why I invited you to come. You are a person who rose to a pretty big position in April in a really amazing firm. I was wondering - I'm the guy here, and I don't like having only males on the panel. It's really boring and it doesn't really reflect what internal communications are in the field. We have so many powerful, smart women that are risen to the challenge and got there.

Let's say you're at that top of the mountain for me. What's your advice to other women out there, specifically in Internal Comms that are trying to get there?

And what are the specific, maybe even challenges that you face getting there? 

Channa: It's so hard. Here’s why. When your life experience is all you've ever known, it's hard to know. Did you have maybe a difficult interaction with somebody, or an experience that wasn't great because you are a woman or because you're a person of color or because of some other factor?

Or is it just that that person was just not a nice person, and it just was what it was? This is just what has served me well. I always default to people who are who they are, and I am having experiences that I need to have in order to grow, period. So if it's harder for me because I'm a woman or because I happen to be African-American, that's just sort of what it is. Like I just accept that. My life experience is what it is, and I can't change it. I'm African American. That's just what it is. I have always not assumed the worst. Everybody has the good intention of finding the right talent. It may seem naive, but it really has served me well to just start there.  I'm going to assume that every opportunity is available to me. I'm going to assume that when I work hard and do well, I will be recognized and rewarded, period.

Then what I have also found is that the next step can either go right, or it can go left. Sometimes it's really extra hard. You're in a boys club kind of situation. It's really, really difficult to then try to navigate egos and the politics, and the nobody. It's just not fun to do that. Then the other opportunity is just to say, all right, well, I'm not going to worry about them. I'm going to create my own value over here. And they will realize that I need to be part of that conversation.  Earlier in my career, when I looked at women whose careers I emulated and modeled, they happened to be the types that didn't want to be the poster child, or I'm the woman venture capitalist, or I'm the woman chief executive. They didn’t want that.

They wanted to be there based on their own accord and on merit alone, because that's because they were just good, and they were the best people for the job. That's what I always drive for. I personally just want to be the best person for the job, for any company that I worked for, anytime I'm there. I believe that I'm the best for the job, period. If I happen to check a few boxes, and I do, then that's icing on the cake. I just really firmly believe in bringing in the value by doing a really good job. I believe our company operates this way, which is why I've been here for so long. When you do well, you do good. It's actually a little weird. When you do good, you do well. Right? If I do a good job, then I will be rewarded. I just really focus on what I can control, which is myself. I can control my work, I can control what I can contribute, and I just correct people to see that.

If they don't see it, then that's okay. That's on them. That's their loss. And if that doesn't work for me, then I have the choice to go somewhere else. I have learned that trying to convince people that I'm just as good as the book, I have no interest in doing that. I just don't. There was a guy at our firm who made a joke, it was funny, but it's so true, you know, get on the train or dead off. Recognize my value or don’t. It's not going to stop me. I just think when you have that sort of confidence, then nobody can question you.

It doesn't mean that you're perfect, but I've earned every right to be where I am, because I'm good at what I do. I have a lot to learn and I'm going to keep on learning. My company is going to benefit from what I learned, and they're going to benefit from the fact that I'm passionate about what I'm passionate about.

Now, the time to worry is when I'm not passionate about it, and when I'm not doing a good job, you know? Cause nobody owes you anything. You have to earn it every day.

Jonathan : Channa, we got in touch because you're incredibly good at what you do, and we will stay in touch because you are incredibly good at what you do. You're also a great person to talk to. I really want to thank you for the time that you put into this conversation. As always, it was a pleasure. I'm really looking forward to having you back someday soon seeing you.

We actually have an upcoming fireside chat pretty soon, with another amazing person in internal communications, Janet Hitchen. That's going to be a lot of fun as well. I'm really looking forward to talking to you again. In the meantime, thanks so much. Your advice has been stellar.

Your merit is unquestionable. And I think you're one of the most innovative internal communicators today. So it's been a real pleasure.

Channa: Thank you so much for having me, and I just really appreciated the chance to learn and share, and talk with you. Thanks so much.